Co-Chairman (Deputy O'Kennedy): We have a quorum so I wish to move on to the next item on our agenda, which is item 3 - motion on the joint bid to host the European football championships, 2008. The motion has a particular significance for our Celtic representatives and I am sure those of you who do not share that very special blood bonding will support the motion in one form or another. I will now call upon Ms Shauna Robison, a Member of the Scottish Parliament, to formally move the motion, and open the debate.

Ms Robison, MSP: I move:

That the Body welcomes the joint Scottish-Irish bid for the European
Championships, 2008; recognises that Euro 2008 provides a great
Opportunity for both Scottish and Irish tourism; and, looks forward to
Euro 2008 further enhancing relations between both nations.

I want to say how pleased I am to attend my first meeting of the British-Irish Interparliamentary Body. I am told that from now on I should refer to it as the body, so I will do so. It has been a very interesting morning and I pay tribute to you, Co-Chairman, for providing the very good hospitality. While it is always difficult in the postprandial session, when one has consumed a three-course lunch, to concentrate on what one is doing, I will do my best.

I am very pleased that this motion has been selected for debate because the European Championships, 2008, provide a very good co-operation opportunity both for Scotland and Ireland. I should make it clear from the start that I am not a football expert, although my husband is a self-confessed Dundee United supporter.

Co-Chairman (Deputy O'Kennedy): Oh dear!

Ms Robison: This is also the case for the Minister for Sport in the Scottish Executive, who supports the same football club. For those who follow the Scottish premier league - and I can hear from the groans that there are a number in this room - they will know that being a Dundee United supporter is a cause for concern at the moment. One can only live in hope, however, that the club will start to do better. Dundee is the venue for one of our new proposed stadiums which would be a shared ground between the city's two clubs. I certainly hope that proposal comes to fruition.

Football is an important way of life, so to speak, for both Scotland and Ireland. I do not think one needs to be too good at something for it to be a way of life. I have great faith that Berti Vogts' ability to turn our fortunes around will be seen in the near future, although I am not quite sure if Berti Vogts knows what a big job he is taking in hand. A big challenge lies ahead of him.

Co-Chairman (Deputy O'Kennedy): I do not want to intervene but when you mentioned Berti, people here might be confused about which Berti you are talking.

Ms Robison: Berti Vogts, not Bertie's Bowl. They are two different Berties.

Our footballing traditions make it very appropriate that we have agreed to submit a joint bid for the European championships. Our joint reputation for friendly fans - they come no more friendly than the tartan army - and our strong footballing tradition will stand us in good stead against our competitors for this very prestigious sporting event.

This sporting event is the third largest in the world with an estimated television audience of a staggering seven billion people. It will be a great opportunity to provide a very much needed boost to our respective tourism industries which have had a hard time of late, particularly since the tragedy of 11 September. It is estimated that the tournament will attract around 400,000 overseas visitors to Scotland and Ireland and an extra £450 million will be spent on travel, accommodation and related leisure expenditure during the tournaments. That will be a real boost to both our economies. Thousands of new jobs are expected to be created in the preparations for the tournament, during the tournament itself and, hopefully, in its aftermath.

The deadline for the official bid is 31 May. A great deal of work has already gone into the joint bid and more will have to be done before that deadline. I am confident that any potential difficulties, the obvious ones being the issue of the new stadium and a certain general election which is in the offing, can be overcome. I sense a political will in Scotland and Ireland to make this joint bid a success. Where there is political will, no matter what the practical barriers, they can always be overcome. I look forward to both our nations benefiting from this joint venture and forming an even closer relationship in the process of that joint venture.

Mr. Battle MP: It is a pleasure to speak on an issue about which I have a little knowledge. I am delighted this topic is in this slot. I support the motion and I say that as a Yorkshireman. I have to declare an interest as we get down to the really partisan business. I am the supporter of a winning team - Leeds United. It was winning at the beginning of the season when I saw the first match against Arsenal in a bar in Roscommon. We had a patchy period in the middle but we are still supplying three players to the Irish team and two players to the Scottish which is rather more than we have provided to the English. In that spirit, I support the motion.

I would like to make a more serious point as well as supporting this bid of the Scottish Football Association and the FAI to host the European nations football championship. If one looks at the list of competitors, one is Greece and Turkey which is interesting because I, in a perverse moment, was tempted to ask if they will hold the matches in Cyprus, for example. I make the point half seriously because it is a way to bring together and reassess pasts and traditions. Bill Shankly, when asked whether football was a matter of life and death, said that it was more important. In some ways, I believe that to be true.

In 1994 in an essay entitled, The Lie of the Land - Some Thoughts on the Map of Ireland, Fintan O'Toole made the point that although Dublin and Edinburgh are of equal distance from the Rhine, Edinburgh, accordingly to a certain German map of Europe's new economically defined regions, is part of the core whereas Dublin is part of the outer periphery simply because Edinburgh is more accessible and richer and that in this sense, the new map of post-1992 Europe is one in which Dublin and Belfast are in the west along with Warsaw, Bucharest and Lisbon, while Edinburgh and London are in the east along with Stuttgart, Nice and Rome and where space is measured not in miles or kilometres but in marks or francs it is hard to get one's bearings. That was written in 1994. I think the terrain has shifted massively more recently as Ireland is now centred in the heart of European developments and movements such as the adoption of the euro. Politically and economically, Ireland has moved well in from the periphery. This is a period in which the relationship between Ireland and Scotland could be a very fruitful source of future development discussions. Both are doing well and in a different relationship to the centre.

There is a brilliant set of essays published by Cork university, The Irish Review, and the current edition is on Ireland and Scotland - colonial legacies and national identities. That issue is moving on to the agenda again. Roddy Doyle's advice to the citizens of the Republic in 1997, which I think is appropriate to everyone whether living in England, Wales, the Channel Islands or the Isle of Man, was that we should all take our passports to bed with us because we are not sure whether we are going to wake up in a different place. I think that is something of the 21st century agenda.

There is a bit more to football than the partisanship on the terraces. Coming out of Elland Road after a nil, nil draw I turned to a guy and asked him if he enjoyed the game. He said he had and that the best part of the game was the minute's silence for the television commentator at the beginning. I think we can get beyond that. As its best, sport has a capacity to affirm, to contain and to transcend local tribalisms, although at its worst, it reinforces them. It is not just investing in the value of the television franchises or in the tourism. It would be a symbolic cultural event if Scotland and Ireland manage to get together in the same way as I would like to see Belfast be the city of culture in Europe in 2008. Both those events would be a massive symbolic affirmation of what is going on on what used to be regarded as the periphery of Europe.

Co-Chairman (Deputy O'Kennedy): We will have to readjust our awareness of the geography of Europe from your opening words. It all depends which point you regard as what the Greeks used to call the omphalos ges, the navel of the earth. If you start from Edinburgh, then the rest is periphery and if you start from somewhere else, then Edinburgh is on the periphery. We would be on the periphery in any event.

I would like to make two points of clarification in respect of terminology. My co-chair asked me to mention that the 'Warsaw' to which you have referred is not the 'Walsall' he represents. As regards the terms of the motion, the bid has been submitted by the Scottish Football Association and the Football Association of Ireland. It is a joint bid on the part of both football associations. It has nothing to do with the Governments as such. I gather it does not include the Northern Ireland Football Association, although I am quite sure that if it wished to be involved in the bid, it would not necessarily be excluded. The football associations have taken this initiative. Anything we say here is by way of recognition, support or encouragement to the football associations.

Mr. David McLetchie MSP: I will be playing four-four-two in this contribution and I could do with a good striker up front who could get me a few decent points. I welcome the announcement that the Scottish Executive and the Irish Government would support the joint bid of their respective football associations to co-host the European Championships in 2008. It was a cause of particular satisfaction for us because one of my colleagues in the Scottish Parliament first suggested, in June 2002, that it might be an appropriate way ahead in terms of mounting a successful bid for this important football championship.

Inevitably, there have been some political differences of view as to whether or not a joint or solo bid should have been promoted. I wish to reinforce a point which Ms Robinson made. She speaks from the perspective of the SNP and pointed out that the Conservative Party members of the Parliament fully support the decision behind the bid and that irrespective of any changes in political complexions there may be between now and 2008, there is joint support in the Parliament for a joint bid and a willingness to acknowledge that this involves commitments on the part of the Governments to back it and that it will have our support.

Inevitably, much attention in these matters focuses on problem areas, especially the vexed issues of disputes about facilities, stadia and infrastructure. We in the Scottish Parliament are no strangers to controversy when it comes to debates about major public works and the financing of them. Inevitably, much comment in the Scottish press, and perhaps in Ireland, has focused on debates about facilities and stadia. I now consider myself to be fully conversant on issues to do with Stadium Ireland, the refurbishment of Lansdowne Road and the constitution of the GAA, all subjects on which I thought I would never gain any expertise. However, as Ms Robison outlined in her contribution, we in Scotland also have issues to resolve in terms of getting our stadia in place.

The important thing to recognise in all of this is that the Scottish-Irish bid is well ahead of the field in terms of the facilities that are already in place. We should reflect on this. It puts it into perspective that Portugal, which will host the championships in 2004, has still to advise on the stadia in which the games will be played. I have no doubt that if our bid is successful and accepted in December when UEFA makes a decision, we will be able to put the facilities in place, in both Scotland and Ireland, to ensure that there will be a first class championship.

The title of the motion refers to the joint bid to host the European Cup. However, we are concerned with the European Championships. Scotland will host the European Cup final this May. One of the reasons we are able to do so is because we have a national stadium that meets the requisite standards to host an event of size, scale and importance. Perhaps people in Ireland might reflect that if they wish to do likewise in terms of major international events the facilities must be in place.

The joint bid for the European Championships puts us in a very strong position vis-à-vis our competitors, most of which are themselves joint bids involving adjoining football associations. The last European Championships were jointly hosted by Holland and Belgium and this year's World Cup will be jointly hosted by Japan and South Korea. There is no reason to believe, therefore, that a joint bid has any less prospect of success than a solo one.

Whatever our game may be and regardless of whether or not we are soccer fans, we must recognise that as a sport, football has a global reach unlike no other. If we are successful with this bid and if Scotland and Ireland host these championships that will offer a tremendous opportunity, as the motion identifies, for the joint promotion of Ireland and Scotland as international tourism destinations. It will provide a great focus for our tourism board and the new tourism board of Ireland to jointly work to promote our countries as such.

It will also provide an opportunity to focus on other issues surrounding major events such as this, especially transportation issues. It might provide a catalyst for discussions about the costs of travel between our respective countries, whether by sea or air, and whether some reforms might appropriately be made to the high levels of them. This continues to be a major problem.

A successful bid will also offer encouragement to consider joint working and partnership bids in relation to other international sporting events. We must all recognise that England is a country with the resources to go it alone in terms of mounting bids for major events. However, if we in Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland or Ireland want to get a slice of that cake, then working jointly offers the best opportunity to bring these major events to our countries and to promote them on a world-wide basis to the benefit of our citizens.

Although as a Scot it grieves me that our team will not be in Japan or Korea this summer, I wish to put on record our best wishes to the Irish and the English teams in the World Cup. I hope the performances of the teams on the field and the conduct of their fans and supporters will be a credit to us all in the British Isles and that this will give a significant boost to the prospect of a successful bid by Scotland and Ireland for the 2008 European Championships.

Co-Chairman, (Deputy O'Kennedy): Thank you, David. You are right to mention that the title to item 3 is incorrect, although the motion itself is correctly worded. Item 3 refers to the joint bid to host the European Cup while the motion refers to the European Championships.

Mr. Dai Lloyd AM: I reiterate the welcome to this motion. I must declare an interest as a Swansea City supporter, which is not setting the lower regions of the Nationwide Third Division alight. I am pleased to support the motion, providing as it does recognition of the footballing success of Scotland and Ireland, especially in recent years.

I speak on the back of an especially bleak weekend in Wales, at least in rugby terms. Our football team hardly excels either, standing as it does at No. 101 in FIFA's world rankings. In international terms the Welsh rugby and football teams perform a valuable role because it is not all about success, it is about how one plays the game. If one's international team is riven by self doubt, distracted by division, riven by a lack of confidence and on a terrible run of results I suggest it play Wales and see all these problems disappear. England and its fine rugby team had a little element of self doubt, having suffered a defeat at the hands of France. On Saturday it took approximately three minutes to clear up.

We in Wales take our role in bolstering the performances of international teams seriously. We are always losing to emerging footballing nations, such as Moldavia and Belarus, who I welcome on to the world stage; we are always giving Liechtenstein and Malta a sporting chance and for generations we have always failed to qualify for the later stages of any major football tournament. However, this motion is about Ireland and Scotland moving ahead with confidence, ability and vision and we wish you well. We also wish Ireland well in this year's World Cup. Should either Scotland or Ireland suffer a dip in form or start losing and should that old self-doubt start creeping in prior to 2008, they should play Wales and we will put them right.

Co-Chairman (Deputy O'Kennedy): Thank you for that support, understanding and reassurance. It will infect both our teams as they perform in these championships.

Mr. Andrew Mackinlay MP: Almost uniquely, I find English Premier League football extremely boring. It attracts a disproportionate amount of time and energy of politicians and when they touch it, it all seems to end in tears. Therefore I approached this with some caution.

However, this is an important bid. It is bigger than football. The nature and scale of the football associations of Scotland and Ireland are not in the same category as the industry, not sport, which is the dominant feature in England. There is still a great deal of cultural pride and heritage involved in soccer in Scotland and Ireland and for that reason I am very interested in saying something positive about it.

Because of all the attraction which could flow from a successful bid to the benefit of Scotland and Ireland, I would also hope that the appropriate Ministers in the Scottish Executive and in the Republic of Ireland, to the extent that might be facilitating and assisting - they should not do more than that - the bid, will nevertheless try and persuade both the relevant football associations to give some deference, encourage and inclusion in the loop to the Irish Football Association.

The Irish Football Association is the football association which runs soccer in Northern Ireland. Clearly they do not have a stadium which could contribute in any way in terms of providing a venue for the competition but it is important that they should have some involvement. Perhaps there could be spin-offs with the B teams playing in Northern Ireland. This would be a very important occasion for Northern Ireland to benefit from what would be a very successful bid.

I have declared that I do not really have a great interest in soccer but recently I have been to games in Northern Ireland at Ards Football Club which is in their First Division. I wish there were Unionists here to talk about this but I will do it in a surrogate capacity. When a Unionist councillor, who is the chairman of Ards Football Club, had to get involved with ground sharing, he bravely took the Ards Football Club to Cliftonville. Anybody who knows about that would realise that Cliftonville is in the heart of the nationalist part of Belfast. The police authorities were horrified and some of his party were amazed but it proved extraordinarily successful. I do not think that Ards or Cliftonville have had recognition for this groundbreaking decision. It worked extraordinarily well. Much good has flowed from that in terms of training and involving young people from these quite distinct culturally different areas. The tragedy is that the big football teams which give friendlies, which are extremely important to Northern Ireland clubs' status, have not given friendlies to Ards Football Club in recognition. I mention it unashamedly here because it seemed to me that if any MPs here are interested in soccer and have some clout and leverage with some of these big clubs, they just might ensure that these two clubs in Northern Ireland, which have done a tremendous amount to build bridges, are given some recognition for their important work.

Deputy O'Shea: I am the Labour Party spokesperson on sport. My party fully supports this bid and would wish that it is successful. I will not introduce any political note here, except to say that there are sports issues out there in Ireland which will probably be resolved after the general election rather than before it, but no doubt they will be resolved.

One of my great concerns is the drink culture among our young people. Often that drink culture is promoted by sport in the sense that drink companies sponsor sport. When this bid is successful we should seek in organising the competition to lay down a positive agenda for youth. Unfortunately Irish society is becoming more violent and that is partly due to the drink culture of which I spoke. In organising this event, there also should be a strong focus on the social aspect. Every effort should be made to ensure that there is a line set down which will encourage young people, particularly young males, to deport themselves in the best possible way. If we succeed in doing that, there can be a lasting and continuing benefit to society.

Co-Chairman (Deputy O'Kennedy): Thank you, Brian. Knowing that you are a active supporter of the Gaelic games, your message to all young people engaged in sport or following sport is particularly appropriate at this time.

Mr. Iain Smith MSP: I am not sure I am qualified to speak on a football motion at present because I am a St. Johnston support and anybody who knows the Scottish league will know we are not doing too well this season. However, things can only get better.

I welcome the support that the Body has shown to this bid through allowing this debate and hopefully supporting the motion. It is a good example of the devolved administration being able to work with the Irish Government in order to promote the interests of both Scotland and Ireland in this matter.

It is an important event. As Shona Robison stated in her introduction, the tourism spin-offs from Euro 2008 will be quite large for both Scotland and Ireland if we are successful in getting this bid. There will be 400,000 visitors for the games themselves but that is the only tip of the iceberg because the international television audience will be able to see Scotland and Ireland, at their best, promoting this event and hopefully this will result in many more hundreds of thousands of visitors in the years following 2008.

It is also important that it will bring new facilities to Scotland and Ireland. Scotland requires two new stadia in order to have six stadia of the standard required and Ireland requires at least one additional stadium. The important aspect of those stadia is that they should not be just about the football games and providing new stadia for several football clubs. There is the opportunity to use those to development community facilities at those locations to help develop the game at grassroots level which is important. We must use Euro 2008 to help develop the game in Scotland and in Ireland. Scotland desperately needs the game to be developed because our record of late has not been as good as it was in the 1970s and 1980s. We need the development at grassroots level to bring us back up to the standard we want.

In that regard it is important that the two stadia in Scotland are built not in Edinburgh or Glasgow but in Aberdeen and Dundee - two of the possible options. It is important that the benefit of Euro 2008 is spread across the whole of Scotland. I am particularly keen to see one of the stadia developed at Dundee because it is just across the River Tay from my constituency of North-East Fife, which would provide an excellent base for the countries playing in that particular group. St. Andrew's, in particular, would provide some excellent hotel facilities for those who wish to visit and for those teams. Indeed, it would be an excellent visit for this Body to come and visit in the future. That was my advertising plug for my constituency.

I am looking forward to the games and I hope we are successful in our bid. I also hope the support of this Body will be of assistance in that regard. The Chairman was correct in stating that it is a joint bid between the Football Association of Ireland and the Scottish Football Association. However, it does require the support of the respective Governments - the Scottish Executive and the Irish Government - and the formal support of the UK Government if it is to be successful. In my opinion the support of the Body will help to keep the bid on track. I welcome that support and I look forward, in particular, to Scotland meeting Ireland in the final in 2008.

Co-Chairman (Deputy O'Kennedy): I must inform Members that they will each have only two minutes in which to contribute because we are almost out of time.

Mr. Harry Barnes (North East Derbyshire): I have only two points to make. The first is probably approaching its sell by date but I hope that the second is still relevant. Andrew Mackinlay made a number of points that are related to the first point I wish to make which revolves around the position of Northern Ireland. It would have been rather nice if the bid had been all-Ireland/Scottish in nature. New stadia have to be built in Scotland and Ireland in order to meet the requirements to host the 2008 championships and Northern Ireland requires a major sports stadium. The latter could have been tied in with the application. Given that the games are to be held in 2008, we will hopefully be well on the road to fully implementing the Belfast Agreement which could have drawn communities together. However, as Andrew suggested, there could be other ways to draw people into some of the activities.

The point I wish to make which is not past its sell by date is who is going to lead the Scottish/Irish bid to host the championships. When England made its bid to host the World Cup, it was led by Bobby Charlton and Tony Banks who were not, perhaps, a dynamic duo in terms of achieving things. Good consideration needs to be given to who will lead the Scottish/Irish bid, particularly from the football side of things, in order that it will be successful. I wish to put forward the name of a person I believe could do quite an incredible job in fronting the bid. He is a very articulate individual and has the right sort of attitude. I refer here to Niall Quinn, who has decided that the proceeds from his testimonial will be given to children's hospitals in the north-east of England and Dublin. In my opinion he is well capable of producing the goods. I have a ticket for his testimonial and I hope the Whips will give me time off to attend it.

Co-Chairman (Deputy O'Kennedy): As a native of Tipperary who played against Niall Quinn's father many years ago, all I can say is that I believe Harry's suggestion is excellent.

Ms Cathie Craigie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth): I thought the Chairman was going to eat into my time by telling us an old footballing story and I was going to request some injury time. I welcome the opportunity to contribute to this debate and also the obvious enthusiasm that has been expressed by all the Members of the Body.

The joint bid for the 2008 European Football Championship provides a tremendous opportunity for both countries. As previous speakers stated, the championship is considered to be one of the most prestigious tournaments in the world and comes third only behind the Olympics and the World Cup. The SFA and the FAI, together with the Governments of Scotland and Ireland, have worked really hard in recent months to ensure that the joint bid could proceed. With regard to suggestions that Northern Ireland should be included, I believe the bid has progressed too far for that to happen. As I understand it, final bids have to be put in by 31 May. I imagine that the Northern Ireland would feel the benefit of the spin-off from the games to be played in the Republic.

We have already identified the need to have people involved who have experience in football. The two people brought in to front the bid are Roy Keane and Alex Ferguson. I am sure Members will agree that these two individuals have wide experience in the game and will prove worthy ambassadors for Scotland and Ireland. We have an expert team of people involved in the steering group, namely, those who represent the sport, tourism and industry and transport. I am confident that the ongoing work being done to prepare our case is being done in a professional manner. As David McLetchie stated, a great deal still remains to be done - particularly in terms of the preparation of stadiums. There are a number of people standing on the sidelines who are criticising, but there are always critics and peddlers of doom and gloom. Unfortunately, these individuals sometimes get too much coverage in the newspapers. Hopefully we can overcome the criticisms and go forward to present the best possible case.

If one considers the other bids and if one is a betting man or woman, it would appear that the joint bid by Ireland and Scotland is worth placing money on. I do not believe we should underestimate the opportunity the championships would present in terms of showcasing our two countries. Reference was made to television coverage and the number of people who would see games.

Co-Chairman (Deputy O'Kennedy): I apologise, Cathie, but we have entered injury time. Will you conclude your contribution?

Ms Cathie Craigie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth): It is obvious that there is a great deal one could say about this matter. I wish to make a plea to colleagues in Ireland. There are fewer Irish Members present than I would have liked, but I accept that there is an election in the offing. My plea would be to those seeking election in the next number of months to not use this bid as a political football because it will bring benefits to both our countries. I hope the bid will remain above politics and will have the support of all political parties as they go before the electorate.

Co-Chairman (Deputy O'Kennedy): I call Senator Enda Bonner. I was almost going to call him Packie Bonner, who earned his stripes with Glasgow Celtic and the Republic of Ireland. I do not know if they are related but let us hear from the Senator.

Senator Enda Bonner: I am delighted to contribute to this debate. While I, like most Members of the Oireachtas would probably be greater supporters of the GAA than of Association Football, I did attend the last two world campaigns in which the Irish team was involved. Unfortunately, I will not be able to attend the forthcoming tournament because the elections will be taking place.

The county I represent, with the exception of a three mile stretch bordering County Leitrim, is separated from the Republic by Northern Ireland. In the bad old days when this country had a bad economy, the United Kingdom and America were the two countries to which people from Donegal travelled in search of work. In particular, they went to Scotland with which Donegal has a great traditional association. I am delighted, therefore, that the Scottish Football Association has chosen the FAI has its partner in this venture.

I must disclose that I have a vested interest in this matter because I am a season ticket holder with Glasgow Celtic. While I do not attend matches as often as in the past due to my involvement in politics, I was in Ibrox three weeks ago, I will be in Parkhead on Saturday week for the final game of the league season and I will be at the Scottish cup final.

All of the players from Donegal who went on to become Irish internationals learned their trade in Scottish football. Jim Brogan and Paddy Crerand are, even though they played for Scotland, almost fully-fledged Donegalmen because both sets of their parents came from the county. Patsy Gallacher, Johnny Bonnar, Charlie Gallagher, Packie Bonner - who is a cousin of mine - and the best goalkeeper in England, Shay Given of Newcastle United, all learned their trade at Glasgow Celtic. There has been a great association between my county and Scotland.

Hosting the championships would give us the opportunity to update Lansdowne Road. I do not believe we will have to wait until after the general election for confirmation about the second ground because I believe the GAA, at its congress next Sunday, will allow Association Football to be played at Croke Park in a limited way. This means that Croke Park and Parkhead in Glasgow will be two of the finest stadiums used in the championships. It was reported in a newspaper yesterday that the grant available to the SFA to run the championships could be cut back. That would be bad.

I am disappointed that Scotland will not be at the World Cup because the team has always provided great entertainment when it was in it. The team might not have got far but the players and the supporters performed with distinction for their country.

Mr. Jeff Ennis MP: Being born and bred in and representing a place like Barnsley I am delighted to contribute to this important debate because one of Barnsley's most famous sons is a guy called Mick McCarthy. I understand he is currently involved in distinctive Yorkshire football missionary work in Ireland. Mick was born in Worsborough, Barnsley, and I first had the privilege of seeing him play football as a 15 year old for Barnsley Boys and I have been interested in his entire football career, culminating in his appointment as the Irish coach. It gives me great pleasure to support the joint bid being put forward by the SFA and the FAI.

One point that needs to be made is that in recent years the European Championships has made a profit, without taking into account their effect on the tourism industry, etc.. We hosted the successful Euro 96 competition and it had a positive effect. Many people felt it was the most successful football competition to be held on British soil since 1966, when England won the World Cup. There is no doubt hosting the competition on a joint basis is very much in vogue. Of the seven bids to host Euro 2008, five have been made on a joint basis. The joint bid being put forward by Scotland and Ireland is a unique opportunity for the two countries to attract tourists, which will have a significant effect on their economies. It will also supply a legacy for football development and I wish the bid well.

Ms Eleanor Burnham AM: I am delighted to say a few words in support of the bid. I have tenuous links to football. Unfortunately, our local football club, Wrexham, is an unmentionable. However, my husband was an Oxford soccer blue, trained by Docherty and played at Wembley. Given the difficulties with venues, we, in Wales, should offer our highly successful Cardiff Millennium Stadium to make this worthwhile bid work and perhaps make it a truly UK affair.

Senator Paschal Mooney: I fully support the motion and I am delighted it has come before the Body. I hope it will be highlighted by our respective media as there has been controversy in Ireland regarding the provision of facilities. I will take a cue from my colleague and friend, Deputy O'Shea, not to go down the political route. The lack of proper sporting facilities to international standard in Ireland has been a source of frustration and embarrassment to those of us who have a passion for sport. That ingredient of passion is not fully acknowledged by opponents of the Government's desire and that of many other sporting bodies to build a multi-sport national stadium. It is about passion and not just bricks and mortars, as has been pointed out in earlier contributions.

The FAI, IRFU and GAA have all welcomed the concept. Sadly it has become a political football, that has not been helped by the current controversy about the national aquatic centre, which is the first phase of the national stadium. The decision to embark on the construction of an 80,000 seater stadium was in response to the status Ireland enjoys in world football. Our soccer team has qualified for its third world cup since 1990. We are currently ranked eighteenth in the world. Our top premier league clubs are fully professional and over the past two seasons this has been reflected in results in European competitions, whereas prior to that we were whipping boys similar to Moldova, Belarus and so on.

Our rugby team, following a temporary aberration lasting a few seasons, is heading once again for joint leadership of the Six Nations, while our club sides have an unrivalled record in the European Cup.

The GAA is the dominant sporting organisation in Ireland. Its national league and summer All-Ireland Championships attract hundreds of thousands of supporters to games, which are played in every parish. It is said the GAA, that most Irish of organisations, has consolidated the Norman extinction of the old Irish chieftain system by not only embracing the county system but by identifying the county as being the key element in the same way UK Members identify individual clubs as the key element of support for football.

The GAA, due to its charter, does not permit the playing of some games on its properties. Baseball and American football have been played in Croke Park, while Joe Frazier fought there. The GAA has a highly developed range of facilities that are the envy of every other sporting body on the island, which were built using voluntary labour. The association engenders hostility from certain sections of society, yet it has taken courageous decision to bring its membership into the modern era. The ban on members of the British army and the Police Service of Northern Ireland playing its games has been abolished and its central council has indicated there is a real prospect of Croke Park being used as a stadium for the joint bid if the national stadium has not been built.

Ms Robison put the bid in context when she gave us the statistics surrounding it, including the potential for seven billion television viewers, £150 million UK pounds in tourism revenue and thousands of new jobs. Mr. Battle referred to it as a symbolic cultural event while Mr. McLetchie pointed out there are differing political views on the bid in Scotland. That is also the case in Ireland but, despite the controversy surrounding the stadium venture, there is unanimous support for the bid, even among those who do not care about football. He pointed out that problems relating to provision of facilities in Scotland were resolved.

It is important that the status of the Portuguese facilities should be highlighted in the report because there are people who are under the impression that if the stadia are not in place by the end of the year, all bets are off. However, Portugal is not the first country to be awarded a sporting event without having the requisite facilities in place. One can recall previous Olympic Games and Athens is currently experiencing difficulties in the provision of facilities. It has been a media spectator sport leading up to major international sporting events in recent years. This is nothing new and should not be highlighted.

Mr. Lloyd made a self-deprecating contribution. Like our Scottish friends, I always avidly follow Welsh soccer during qualification for tournaments and I can recall screaming the team on when it had an important match against Romania. It was the closest Wales came in recent times to qualifying and there was a great deal of disappointment in Ireland. However, Wales has a good manager and the nucleus of a good team, similar to Ireland, even though the next qualification is not all that easy. We did beat Italy in the World Cup so hope springs eternal. Andrew Mackinlay said he is not a great supporter of Premier League football but he should not tell them that down in the constituencies around Essex and Sussex. However, I take the point in that calling for the involvement of the IFA in the bid is something many of us would welcome. Again, it is important he outlines the difficulties encountered between Ards and Cliftonville.

Due to my own contacts with the FAI here it is a matter of great regret that the one major all-island sport played in both jurisdictions is not structurally an all-island sport. It is the only major sport that is not an all-island sport. As recently as last month the Irish Rugby Football Union debated whether in fact they should regionalise their national league, the All-Ireland League, but the answer was a resounding no. That came from the Ulster delegates, who did not wish to regionalise though one would have thought they might want to. That gives the lie to any suggestion that there is an overt nationalist political involvement in the major sports here. If we do nothing else we should, in the context of Andrew's comments about the IFA and others, send out the message that it would be in the best interests of sport if there were to be some move, even at All-Ireland club competition level, towards having some interaction between North and South. The FAI remains ready, willing and able to undertake that particular direction.

I am glad Deputy O'Shea reiterated Labour's support for the bid and commented on the resolution post-election of the facilities involved. Iaan Smith talked about the tourist benefits and the TV audience and I take the point - again, developing community facilities as part of stadium development should be highlighted. Harry Barnes talked about the all-island bid and I share your views of Niall Quinn. We are all extremely proud of Niall. Cathie Craigie mentioned the difficulties for Northern Ireland and injected a note of reality into the aspirations for Northern Ireland's involvement. Regarding Roy Keane and Alex Ferguson leading the bid, and the expert team representing all strands of society, this is an extremely professional bid. Senator Bonner referred to the contribution of Donegal footballers to the game and the strong links between Ireland and Scotland. That re-emphasises why this side of the Irish Sea is so supportive of involvement with our Celtic cousins in Scotland.

Regarding the Mick McCarthy reference, I thought Jeff was going to tell us he had worked down the mines with Mick. Eleanor Burnham outlined the various facts and statistics as well as the general welcome there is from the body for this issue. I hope I have been fair to all those who contributed and that I outlined the mood in Ireland regarding this bid. I share what seems to be reflected here - overwhelming support - and we wish it well.

Co-Chairman (Deputy O'Kennedy): Thank you. There seems to be common purpose among all of us here, even the Anglo-Saxons support this joint venture.

Co-Chairman (Mr. Winnick): Thank you very much.

Co-Chairman (Deputy O'Kennedy): I took your silence as betokening assent. It has been remarkable here - the Gaelic Athletic Association, as Senator Mooney indicated, seems to be disposed towards making its grounds available, and the IRFU and FAI are all at one common cause. I hope political positions will reflect that solidarity as well, as I believe they will.

I will put the motion. Having been in Parlaimid na h-Alba a while back and our people would greatly welcome the support of that body and the Dáil for both bodies.

I move:

That the body welcomes the joint Scottish-Irish bid for the European
Championships 2008, recognises that Euro 2008 provides a great opportunity for
both Scottish and Irish tourism and looks forward to Euro 2008 further enhancing
relations between both nations.

Is that agreed? Agreed.

Next, we have a group photograph in the Herbert Room, which is where we had the reception the first evening. The light outside is not good and with the Irish weather we might get drenched. We will convene there before 3.45 p.m.

Co-Chairman (Mr. Winnick): The Anglo-Saxons are included?

Co-Chairman (Deputy O'Kennedy): Yes, as long as you do not tog out in all colours. The photographer wants the picture with the Minister and we will reconvene at 4 p.m. sharp.

Sitting suspended at 3.35 p.m. and resumed at 4.08 p.m.

Co-Chairman, (Deputy O'Kennedy): I welcome the Minister for Foreign Affairs, Deputy Brian Cowen, who was a Member of the Body for some years before he took on the responsibility of government. While this is his first time to address the Body as Minister, he is familiar with our procedures, programmes and purpose, having played a major role in the Body. Many Members will know him personally from that time.

Since those days we have been joined by our Scottish, Welsh and island colleagues, and some Members of the Northern Ireland Assembly. This is a much expanded Body, a fact reflected by the issues which it discusses. Apart from the political issues, earlier today we reached a unanimous conclusion regarding the bid by the Scottish Football Association and the Football Association of Ireland to host the European Championships in 2008. The Minister must leave here by 5.30 p.m. at the latest. Following his address, he will take questions that have been submitted. Only the questions of members present will be addressed. I thank the Minister for joining us.

Minister for Foreign Affairs (Deputy Cowen): I wish both Joint Chairmen, Deputy O'Kennedy and Mr. David Winnick, well. I have fine memories of my membership of the Body in the early days when we were finding our feet. I am pleased, therefore, to attend the plenary session today in Dublin. This is my first address to this Body in my capacity as Minister for Foreign Affairs. As one of its first members, it is a pleasure to be back in these welcoming surroundings among some familiar figures and faces.

Since becoming Minister over two years ago, hardly a day has passed without my direct involvement in issues relating to Northern Ireland and the broader framework of British-Irish relations. However, I am very conscious that today I am meeting a Body which has been addressing these issues since its inception in 1990. I want to put on record, therefore, the appreciation of the Irish Government for the significant and continuing contribution made by the Body to the achievement of a lasting political settlement in Northern Ireland.

The Body's ongoing dialogue on developments in Northern Ireland and the wider ambit of Irish-British relations has clearly had a beneficial impact on the improved climate of partnership and mutual understanding between the two Governments and, indeed, between the people of these islands. The presence of colleagues representing so many administrations here today is a powerful symbol of the immense changes brought about by devolution and the Good Friday Agreement. I am confident the Body will continue to thrive in this more inclusive environment and appreciate that our colleagues from Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland, the Isle of Man, Jersey and Guernsey are already adding a new dimension to its work.

I warmly pay these compliments to the Body not just because it is my duty to do so nor because they are well deserved, which they demonstrably are, but also because of a strong sense of personal identification with its work. I felt honoured to be among the first members of the Body and recall with pride and affection the collective work we began in 1990 and that it is now so ably carrying forward. The distinguished joint chairman, David Winnick, was then a colleague of mine on the Body and we were extremely fortunate in having two exceptional joint chairmen in Peter Temple-Morris, who happily is still a stalwart of the deliberations, and my party colleague, Jim Tunney, who sadly passed away earlier this year. I wish also to acknowledge the sad demise recently of my colleague and former member of this body, Colm Hilliard. Ar dheis Dé to raibh a n-anamacha.

When Gerard Collins, as Minister for Foreign Affairs, addressed the second plenary session of the Body in December 1990, he referred to the prevailing atmosphere of "promise and possibility" and focused his remarks on the themes of dynamism and change in Anglo-Irish relations, both in regard to Northern Ireland and the enhanced relationship between both Governments as partners in an evolving European Community. I think most of us on the Body at that time sensed the fault lines in the sterile status quo were dissipating and that we were part of this exciting process of change. However, we could hardly have foreseen the rapidity or extent of that change.

As politicians, it is our job to focus mainly on current problems. We rarely get votes for what we did last year, never mind 12 years ago. Our focus is rightly on what issues need to be addressed now and in the near future. However, in tackling these issues it is instructive, and perhaps sometimes inspiring to take account of what has been achieved, to look in the rear view mirror and see what distance has been travelled. From this distance, a retrospective look back at 1990 sees mixed signs of incipient hope amid continued failure.

On the positive side, the unionist parties were beginning to re-engage following the Anglo-Irish Agreement and the two Governments were working hard to find a basis for talks involving the parties exclusively committed to constitutional means. The Secretary of State delivered a landmark speech declaring the British Government had no selfish strategic or economic interest in Northern Ireland, greatly helping to advance the internal debate within republicanism. I am pleased that through this Body, Lord Brooke continues to make wise and helpful contributions to the process. New fair employment legislation entered into effect and there were some signs of a rapprochement in North-South relations, including Charles Haughey's attendance, as Taoiseach, at a major cross-Border conference in Belfast and the welcome attendance of Ken Maginnis at the inauguration of President Mary Robinson in December of that year. On the negative side, there was a continuing and depressing litany of violence. Some 84 people were killed in 1990.

Against that mixed background, it would have been a shrewd colleague who would have predicted in 1990 that within 12 years a multi-party agreement would have been negotiated and endorsed by the people of this island, that a partnership-based Assembly and Executive would exist in Stormont, that vibrant political institutions covering the all-island and British-Irish relationships would operate without controversy, that a policing board comprising representatives of both communities would oversee a policing service beginning an historic process of transformation, that the IRA had begun a process of putting its arms permanently and verifiably beyond use, that the process of normalising the security infrastructure had also begun, that peace on the streets, however imperfect, prevailed across most parts of Northern Ireland and that, in the context of deepening relations between Britain and Ireland, members of this Body would be joined by colleagues from Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland, the Isle of Man, Jersey and Guernsey.

As against where we were when the Body commenced its work in 1990, the political landscape on this island - indeed, across these islands - has been transformed. Only those in the deepest denial could possibly claim that life is not better as a result of what has been achieved in Northern Ireland over recent years.

To recognise what collectively has been achieved is not to deny that some of the changes involved have been difficult or painful nor that there will be further challenges and obstacles to be faced as we go forward. Nor does it imply that we are smug or complacent in the long term. The reason to reflect on and affirm the extent of our collective achievements is not that we wish to rest comfortably on our past record, it is because it inspires, motivates and emboldens us to complete the job of the Good Friday Agreement and thereby secure a future of harmony and stability for all the people of the island. How do we do that? To paraphrase a political slogan used by the Clinton-Gore campaign in 1992, I would suggest the answer is "It's the Agreement, stupid".

Members will all be aware that the political narrative of the last few years has been dominated by the efforts of the two Governments, working with the pro-agreement parties, to fully implement the agreement. We quickly recognised that only by addressing those issues collectively could we make any progress. However, as we tackled all of these issues - policing, the stability of the institutions, decommissioning and security normalisation - I have been struck time and time again by the integrity and ingenuity of the agreement. It has been and, in my view, will always remain the template for political progress in Northern Ireland. This should perhaps come as no surprise. The agreement was, after all, the distillation of practically two decades of dialogue and reflection on how we solve the Northern Ireland problem, in which successive Governments and numerous political leaders all played their part. If we adhere to the totality of the agreement - not selectively, not spinning it for our political comfort - I believe the process will endure and succeed.

I have also been very impressed over the last two years by the commitment of the pro-agreement parties to the achievement of Good Friday 1998. Each of the parties has its own difficulties. Each has to manage its internal constituencies. Nevertheless, notwithstanding whatever stresses and strains each party has to deal with, their core commitment to the agreement has remained solid. As David Trimble has often remarked, the agreement has proven to be a great deal more robust than most people imagined. How do we explain this inherent robustness? The answer is that most people realise there is, ultimately, no realistic alternative to the agreement and that, if it failed, we would inevitably, after a period of political sterility, return to its fundamental principles and values.

Looking to the challenges ahead, I also believe the agreement provides the way forward. There has been a great deal of discussion recently about the possible dangers of one alienated community in Northern Ireland being simply replaced by another and what we need to do to address this deficit in confidence. I am very conscious that the acceptance and management of change is difficult and there is always the potential for it to be perceived as threatening. While some may seek to abuse this debate as a coded resistance to the partnership politics envisaged by the agreement, I recognise that many unionists, in particular, people from the loyalist community, are genuinely concerned about their long term future in Northern Ireland. I also accept it is the duty of all political leaders to responsibly address these concerns.

In terms of problems stemming from economic and social marginalisation, disadvantaged loyalist and nationalist areas have ultimately more in common than separates them. I also accept it is the duty of all political leaders responsibly to address those concerns. In terms of problems stemming from economic and social marginalisation, disadvantaged loyalist and nationalist areas have more in common than separates them. After all, the human indignity and demoralisation which results from material deprivation, poor educational attainment and lack of employment opportunities are no differently experienced on the Falls Road than they are on the Shankill Road. I was struck recently by the degree of commonality between the reports of separate task forces looking at the question of economic development in Catholic and Protestant west Belfast. As one distinguished US Senator recently told the Taoiseach in Washington, "The issue here may be less about the relative size of the slice of each community than about increasing the pie for all".

While accepting that the particular nature and dimensions of a problem may vary between communities we must, nevertheless, recognise and act on the commonality of economic and social deprivation on both sides of the community. A segmented approach which politically prioritises the needs of one community merely risks displacing the alienation from one side of the equation to the other.

It is sometimes argued that since the Agreement the sense of Britishness is being eroded in Northern Ireland and that symbols of importance to unionists are under attack. I would point to the complex balance which the Agreement struck on this issue and to its explicit acknowledgement of the sensitivity of the use of symbols and of the need to ensure they are used in a manner which promotes mutual respect rather than division. The simple fact is that the circumstances of Northern Ireland are unique. The exceptional constitutional and institutional arrangements under the Agreement reflect that uniqueness. Northern Ireland is neither wholly British in identity nor wholly Irish, but both British and Irish. Its two communities have different and in many ways competing political aspirations and identities, both of which are equally legitimate. In the Agreement we have sought to provide a basis for peaceful and mutually respectful co-existence. In pragmatically handling the issue of symbols we need to find a modus vivendi acceptable to all sides which reflects this unique reality and is grounded on the balanced principles and provisions of the Agreement itself.

Another element contributing to a sense of anxiety among some unionists is the long term constitutional future of Northern Ireland, provoked in part by speculation about demographic shifts and the result of the 2001 census, early analysis of which will be published later this year. Some on the nationalist side are keen to fast forward the process and to focus on the context in which unionism would give its assent to a united Ireland. Others on the unionist side wish to arrest the debate by testing the matter in a Border poll next May. The debate which would surround such an early poll would, inevitably, be divisive and polarising at a time when our immediate task must be to continue the work of implementing the Agreement and of building on its fundamental principles of partnership, equality, reconciliation and mutual trust. That is one of the main reasons for my deep reservations about the wisdom of any Border poll in the near future and I fear it would distract from the urgent challenges we now need to address.

Despite the undoubted progress we have made, it is clear that the core values of the Agreement have yet to be embraced by many in Northern Ireland. From the appalling scenes at Holy Cross school and recent events in north Belfast we know the cancer of sectarianism remains a virulent phenomenon in some parts of Northern Ireland; that paramilitary organisations continue to prey on disadvantaged communities; that the despicable practice of punishment attacks is a reality and continues; that the abhorrent practice of exiling by paramilitary organisations remains a problem; and that dissident republicans and renegade loyalists continue to defy the democratic will of the people of Northern Ireland and of this island as a whole.

What we need in the immediate term is a sustained period of political calm in which we can address these problems by demonstrating the tangible benefits of partnership politics across all communities on the island and within Northern Ireland; by consolidating and implementing the promised new beginning in policing so that the PSNI is welcome, accepted and supported in all communities in Northern Ireland; by ensuring that the process of putting arms beyond use is further progressed by the IRA and that it begins on the loyalist side; and by further securing the human rights and equality agenda at the heart of the agreement.

The greatest reassurance that can be given to those who have genuine fears about the future is to highlight the central organising principle at the core of the Agreement. That is the rigorous equality now prescribed between both communities in Northern Ireland. The Agreement recognises that if the problems in Northern Ireland stem from a failed hegemony of orange over green the situation would be equally shameful and unworkable if it merely reversed the order. Some of the current fears arise from a mistaken view that the equality agenda represents a litany of concessions to nationalists at the expense of unionists. The opposite is, in fact, the case. The equality provisions of the Agreement transcend the traditional political model in Northern Ireland which in the past always operated through a zero-sum prism of winners and losers.

Recognising that equality was the indispensable condition for stability and a democratic society, the Agreement provided equal rights and protections for both communities, irrespective of the constitutional status in Northern Ireland or which of its communities should be in the minority. Equality is not about political expediency and is most certainly not about a nationalist gain and a unionist loss. It is about ensuring that everyone in Northern Ireland is a winner, both now and into the future.

In pressing on with the implementation of the Agreement we should be sustained and encouraged by the remarkable progress made over recent years. None of the problems we face are insuperable. Compared to the obstacles already overcome, the outstanding difficulties are not intractable. In going forward, we should be determined to pursue the next phase of the process with energy, positivity and commitment and above all, the peace process must not be a cold house for confidence, hope and optimism.

The progress in Northern Ireland in recent years owes much to the greatly improved climate in the wider British-Irish relationship. At all levels the nexus of relationships between these islands now displays a remarkable vibrancy and maturity. Our political relationships have never been stronger. The close political partnership which has characterised the London-Dublin axis in recent years - exemplified by the effectiveness and ease of the working relationship between the Taoiseach and the Prime Minister - has been complemented by the rapid development of contact and dialogue with our colleagues in the devolved administrations in Cardiff and Edinburgh. We attach great importance to the development of our relationships with Scotland and Wales and intend to build on the presence of our consulates there and on the success of the recent high level visits between our respective capitals.

The collective relationships between the various administrations on these islands has also been greatly assisted by the establishment, under the Good Friday Agreement, of the British-Irish Council. The council is taking forward an important programme of work in a range of areas which are of conern to its members, including the issues of combating drugs and environmental matters. In regard to the latter, the nuclear safety and public health dimensions of Sellafield remain of great concern to our Government.

The Irish Government is happy that in recent years members of the British Royal family have made various visits to this country. I was very pleased to meet the Prince of Wales on his recent, and second, visit to this part of Ireland and to be present for his generous and sensitive remarks at the Glencree centre for reconciliation. I was particularly struck by his comment that peace is not just an absence of conflict but also a climate in which "understanding of others goes beyond caricature and where frozen images of hatred and negativity yield to a new vision of shared values and goodness". In many ways the work of this Body, and the presence of the Prince of Wales in this country on that occasion, has helped to move us all beyond those frozen images. His comments about peace echo my own views that peace is brought about, not just by the absence of violence, but also by the presence of justice.

The visits of President McAleese to various parts of the United Kingdom have also been enormously effective in projecting a modern image of Ireland, which transcends the old caricature, and in affirming the importance of the Irish diaspora in Britain. The remarkable success of the this year's St. Patrick's Day parade in London reflects the depth and breadth of that diaspora, that its culture is now part of the mainstream in Britain and that we have happily left behind the troubled years when events of this kind in British cities would simply not have been possible.

The new confidence and maturity in political relationships is also matched in economic and business engagement between Ireland and Britain. Trade between the two countries in the first 11 months of 2001 amounted to some _36 billion, an increase of 20% on the year 2000. The balance of trade falls slightly in our favour with an export surplus of _1.3 billion. While our exports to Britain were traditionally in the area of agrifood, the fastest growing sectors are now software, electronics, telecommunications and other high-tech products and services. Britain also accounts for 55% of total overseas visitors to Ireland, 3.5 million in 2000, and 40% of total tourism revenue. It is also the second largest source of inward investment into Ireland after the US and, reflecting the buoyancy of the Irish economy, several British chain stores have in recent years established new outlets and expanded existing operations in Ireland. Investment is by no means a one-way street. A growing number of Irish companies is investing in Britain, including some State sector companies like Aer Rianta International, which operates the Eurotunnel duty free. In the realm of sport, as the co-chairman said, the degree of interaction between these islands has never been greater. The joint SFA-FAI bid to host the European Championships in 2008 reflects the collective self-confidence and spirit of partnership which now exists between sports organisations in these islands. Even in popular culture, for better or worse, we are progressively blending. Our susceptibility to British soap-operas is only matched by your enthusiasm for Irish pop groups and rock bands.

A further demonstration of the new maturity I have been speaking of is the transformation that is taking place in the relationship between North and South on this island. Historically, since partition, that relationship had been characterised - let us be frank - by hostility, apartness and mistrust. We lived many decades as strangers to each other. With the Good Friday Agreement, and its recognition of the need for a new beginning, we are starting to change all that. Primarily through its new North-South institutions, new relationships are being forged and developed. Those new relationships have one fundamental truth at their heart - that the best interests of both parts of the island require us to work in partnership together, rather than apart from each other. Partnership makes utter good sense at so many levels and we are already seeing its benefits in tangible terms.

We saw it last year in the hugely effective way the two agriculture Ministers, Joe Walsh and Bríd Rodgers, combined to curtail the potentially devastating impact of foot and mouth disease. We are seeing it also in the new island approach to tourism. Under the umbrella of the Ministers, Deputy Jim McDaid and Sir Reg Empey, in the North-South ministerial council, a new company, Tourism Ireland Limited, has been established to market the entire island of Ireland overseas as a tourism destination. Tourism is a critical economic sector for both parts of the island and one with enormous potential. This initiative makes such obvious good sense for both of us and we have high hopes that Tourism Ireland will be a tremendous success. We are seeing the benefits of partnership also in the world of trade and business. Intertrade Ireland has been established as the body with responsibility for promoting greater trade and business linkages between both parts of the island. It is already making a real impact and demonstrating that by working together we can both achieve more than either of us could do alone.

In political terms also, barriers are being broken down and replaced by bridges. The North-South Ministerial Council has met 53 times since its inception in December 1999. What was previously unthinkable has now become routine. When Seán Lemass met Terence O'Neill in 1965 it was rightly regarded as an historic encounter, but today, Ministers from North and South meet on a routine basis to take forward co-operation to our mutual benefit on a whole range of areas, without fuss or controversy, just simply getting on with the business. Our task now is to build on the North-South foundations that have been laid to continue to deepen trust and mutual understanding, and to ensure that the tremendous potential that the new partnerships hold for all of us on this island in practical terms is realised to the full. There are many challenges ahead, but I am excited about the great opportunity that has been offered to this generation on the island to make sure that the future is very different to the past.

When my predecessor addressed this Body in December 1990, he also spoke of a "fluid and evolving" European institution that was "possibly on the verge of far reaching change" and how people were grappling with absolutely fundamental questions about the future path the Community was to take. Twelve years later, Europe is again at a similar juncture, although in a radically different economic and political context. As you are all aware, the European Union is entering a crucial phase in its development. This time the forum for the debate is the Convention on the Future of Europe, which has just held its second meeting. I am delighted that the Body has recognised the importance of this debate for Ireland and Britain and that you will be discussing the issue in depth tomorrow morning.

One of the most fundamental questions we now face is how to address the sense of disconnection between the citizen and the European Union. It is not an easy question to answer. What citizens want varies across the Union, as it does within every country. There are, however, certain elements of broad consensus. They want a European Union that is accessible and transparent. The purpose and the actions of the Union must be clear and must be relevant. Its institutions must be effective. They will be judged by how far they can deliver peace, prosperity and security and by what they can deliver above the capability of member states acting alone. In saying that, I recognise that the current institutions have served Ireland well, as I believe they have served the EU well. The Union needs sensible reform and renewal.

Member states also have a responsibility closer to home. National parliaments must play a greater role in the scrutiny of EU business if the sense of disconnection is to be successfully addressed. Our National Forum on Europe addressed this issue recently when it heard from Lord Brabazon of Tara, chairman of the House of Lords European Affairs Committee, on that chamber's scrutiny arrangements. The new scrutiny arrangements planned for the Oireachtas will greatly enhance existing oversight procedures in our legislature and place us towards the top of the European parliamentary league table in that regard. It is also vital that debates take place nationally on issues relating to the European Union. Ireland's National Forum on Europe has succeeded in identifying some of the factors behind the "No" vote against the Treaty of Nice last year. The Government is working to address those concerns while, at the same time, remaining steadfastly committed to the ratification of the Treaty before the end of the year, so as to allow enlargement to take place on schedule. The focus of our national forum has, however, been broader than Nice. It has been a platform for effective and wide ranging debate on Europe and Ireland's place in the European Union. The forum has succeeded in its goal of an inclusive debate and its "mini-fora" held around the country were a particularly effective in helping to bring the debate on Europe physically closer to our citizens.

If the current convention is to succeed, these national and regional debates must be given the opportunity to feed into its work and to make a valuable contribution to the strategic debate on the future of Europe. The Irish Government was very pleased that a number of the Northern Ireland parties took up the invitation to send observers to our National Forum on Europe. I was also delighted to be present at the forum last Thursday when the Deputy First Minister from Northern Ireland, Mark Durkan, made an extremely cogent presentation on the future challenges for the Union and for this island's relationship with a changing Europe.

Both in regard to Northern Ireland and our common membership of the European Union, the British-Irish story of the last 12 years has been delivering on the promise and the possibility identified back in 1990. In this narrative of hope and achievement, the Body represents a very important, if unfinished, chapter. I know that your work continues, enriched by the participation of members from Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland, the Isle of Man, Jersey and Guernsey. Your future work will reflect the benign complexity of the new British-Irish relationship. The Dublin-London axis will now be complemented by a diversity of partnerships on these islands through which we all will benefit. The circle of partnership within the Body will be complete if and when representatives of unionism from the Northern Ireland Assembly take up your invitation to participate. I share your hope that this outcome can soon be achieved.

Finally, as one of those who will soon again have the honour of placing my name before the electorate, I am very conscious that this will be the last plenary session for a number of members of the Body, not least your distinguished Co-Chairman, Michael O'Kennedy. In his distinguished career, Michael has served in A number of Government Departments, including as Minister for Foreign Affairs, as well as being EU Commissioner and Co-Chairman of this Body. In the honourable way he has discharged his legislative and ministerial duties over many years, Michael has made an immense contribution to the quality of the relationship between Ireland and Britain. I thank him for his outstanding public service and wish him and his wife, Breda, every happiness and success in their future lives outside of politics. Thank you all.

Co-Chairman (Mr. David Winnick): On behalf of the Body, I say how encouraging we found your remarks and the kind reference to the Body's work. As the Minister said, he was among the founding members and made a positive contribution at the time. You said that all is not perfect in Northern Ireland and rightly so but what a remarkable amount of progress has been made in the last four years since the Good Friday Agreement. It is our job as a Body to contribute to that process and consolidate it. Both British and Irish parliamentarians, in their workplace and on this Body, have that responsibility.

I thank Minister Cowen, on behalf of the Body, for his kind and genuine words about his colleague, Deputy Michael O'Kennedy who has had a distinguished career in Irish politics and as the Co-Chairman of this Body. We are pleased that he has been the Irish Co-Chairman and it has been helpful to have someone like him to work with. We are pleased the Minister came along. As someone who remembers his contribution on the beginning of this Body I can say that it is good to see him again in his distinguished role as Minister for Foreign Affairs.

Co-Chairman, (Deputy O'Kennedy): I will refrain from a detailed response to the generous comments made about me. It has always been a privilege to serve in public life and that privilege has been enhanced by being Co-Chairman of this Body.

The Minister has agreed to take questions and some questions have been formally tabled. I remind everybody that he has to leave before 5.30 p.m. The procedure is that the Member in whose name the question is tabled should just signal that he is here to have his question answered. He then gets the first supplementary question. The following supplementary question goes to one or other of the other Members or groups represented here.