The Co-Chairman (Mr Winnick): We are on item 5 of the agenda. We come to the report of both Governments to the report of Committee D, Sabhal Mòr Ostaig and the Columba Initiative, and the Warrington Project. I call Mr McNamara, Chairman of the Committee, to move the motion.

Mr McNamara: I move:

That the Body takes note of the responses of both Governments to the Report of the Committee on Culture, Education and the Environment [Doc. No. 74] on Sabhal Mòr Ostaig and the Columba Initiative, and the Warrington Project.

Of the two, the language one in many ways is the most encouraging in the sense that there is a recognition of the need for Gaelic-speaking areas in Ireland, the Gaeltacht in the South, the North and in Scotland to co-operate and exchange information, teaching methods, scholars and work. We welcome that and we welcome the attitude taken by the Scottish Office, the new Scottish Parliament and the Irish Government.

At the time the report was being finalised the Assembly was suspended. Since then we have had the establishment of the new language board between both parts of Ireland to encourage the Irish language. There has been a commitment of substantive resources to it, although no one is ever satisfied sufficiently with the amount. I hope representatives of our Welsh colleagues might come into the Celtic fringe. We hope that at some time in the future fraternal delegates from Brittany might come here as well. That was a warm and constructive reply from both Governments.

The Warrington Project was a little different. Ms Jean Corston will perhaps give us more information on this a little later. The British Government agreed to put money into the Warrington Project. It was an educational project started by Professor Buckland and his associates to try to bring Irish studies into the curriculum of British schools. However, the Department involved confused the Warrington Project with the Warrington Peace Initiative, which is a separate organisation that was established to deal specifically with some of the problems arising from the bombing in Warrington. To that extent, it was specific and focused on that area.

This led to misunderstandings and conflicts between the two which resulted in Professor Buckland and some of his colleagues withdrawing from the Warrington Project because they felt that marrying the two together was putting the wrong type of emphasis on what they were seeking to do in terms of curriculum teaching. To that extent, the result of what the Department did, which Ms Jean Corston will perhaps be able to explain in more detail later, caused problems. However, Professor Buckland and his colleagues are trying to get private finance in order to be able to maintain the work they were doing. The Committee was very impressed when we went around Warrington and saw what the Warrington schools were doing at primary and secondary level.

The Irish Government is, in one sense, only indirectly associated with the Warrington Project, as it is essentially within the United Kingdom jurisdiction. However, it has been very supportive and has in the past supplied funds. At the moment, we are hoping to have some more direct support from it. Unfortunately, Marian was not able to be here today to tell what progress has been made in that direction.

On the whole, useful efforts have been made. Some of the initiatives taken up by the Warrington Project, in terms of education, will have a long-term effect. They certainly seem to be having a beneficial effect where we have seen them in operation and we hope and believe they will continue to do so. We also hope Professor Buckland and his associates will be able to get the necessary funds to continue their work.

Ms Jean Corston (Bristol East): While these plenary sessions are extremely useful and are obviously the focus of the activities of the British Irish Inter-Parliamentary Body, my opinion is that the most important work is done in the committees of the Body. It is also the committees that command the attendance and interest of Members.

One of the things that struck me in visiting schools and other public institutions in the Republic of Ireland, the North of Ireland and the UK was the marvellous example that is given to people of cross-party groups of Members from the Dáil and the Houses of Parliament visiting, asking questions and coming to a common view. That sets a marvellous example and was one of the things I have found particularly rewarding about my membership of this Body.

I think most of us found Sabhal Mòr Ostaig a very exciting project. Apart from anything else, it seems to have done marvellous work in regenerating the economy of Skye, in that people are now staying there. Employment is secure there and the number of children on the local primary school's roll has gone through the roof. As our chairman, Kevin McNamara, said they are doing very important work worldwide in consolidating the Gaelic language and helping with East-West co-operation.

The Warrington Project is also about East-West initiatives. Our committee probably scored a first in this Body, in that the Secretary of State for Education and Employment, Mr David Blunkett MP, was very interested in the descriptions of the Warrington Project and readily understood its application, in terms of citizenship education. When we were in Warrington, teachers in the schools said that the Monday after that bomb children came to school and asked "why?" which they found they could not answer. The credit goes to the people who realised they should find an answer to that question and should be able to explain why.

That should make us all think about the occasions when children and others have asked "why?" and none of us has had an answer. These people have tried to find an answer. They have done that in ways that can be understood by children of six years reading books about giants and getting into discussions of stereotyping and by 16-year-olds looking at newspaper reports of the Troubles and learning historical analysis, the evaluation of sources and distinguishing between facts, opinion, prejudice and bigotry. It is a very useful introduction to the study of history.

When we were in London in February for our tenth anniversary plenary, the committee went to the Department of Education and Employment and met the Secretary of State. I am not sure whether that was a first for a committee of our Body to meet a Minister specifically to discuss a report. However, I would recommend it as a very useful way of not only highlighting what this Body is capable of, but also of trying to ensure some action by Government.

As a result, David Blunkett agreed that the Department would fund the project to the extent of £150,000. Up to then, the Warrington Project had received £10,000 from the Irish Government and £40,000 from the UK Parliament. It had been getting by on what could only be described as a shoestring, in terms of Government support.

Kevin is right about the degree to which we have to distinguish between the Warrington Project, the Warrington Peace Centre and Ireland in Schools. The Warrington Project feels it is possible to fit into the notion of citizenship education, whereas Ireland in Schools tends to focus much more on the application of Irish studies as part of the National Curriculum and does not necessarily apply to just personal, social or health education or to citizenship. It is very important that we support and encourage all these initiatives, which is why officials in the Department of Education and Employment in the UK are now instructed to work with these projects and to encourage other local education authorities in the UK to look at the materials from Ireland in Schools and find ways of amalgamating them into the National Curriculum.

The peace process is not just there for people like us to monitor or for those in Downing Street, Leinster House or Stormont to implement. The peace process depends, ultimately, on the understanding and consent of everybody in all of these islands, and starting with children seems a very good thing.

We want, if possible, the three organisations to work together and we are very keen to support them. The Taoiseach said earlier that we were looking at dealing with 30, 75 or even 800 years of strife and asked if we can end it. That is probably the biggest question and responsibility for all of us. However, it seems to me that the work that is being done in Warrington poses two questions. First, why was it never done before? And second, how can we extend it to ensure children in schools in Ireland and the other parts of the British Isles understand that the peace process involves all of us and that citizenship is about the rule of law, tolerance, understanding and respect?

The Co-Chairman (Mr Winnick): Could I have some indication of those who want to speak? Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin, John McFall and David Lloyd. We will begin with Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin, followed by John McFall. I hope I pronounced that correctly.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin: It was certainly your best effort so far.

The Co-Chairman (Mr Winnick): Shall we say nine out of ten?

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin: I will certainly give you ten out of ten this time. My contribution will by very short. If Kevin, the chair of our committee, will allow me, I would like to pay tribute particularly to Jean Corston's efforts that led to a very successful meeting we had with the British Secretary for Education, Mr David Blunkett, earlier this year during the course of our last visit to Britain. Clearly, her influence and briefing secured a ready result from the Minister in the area of funding that we were specifically anxious to achieve. It was probably one of the most satisfying meetings we have had as a committee in the course of my short years of involvement on this Body. I want to take the opportunity to commend her to the Body for her work in that regard.

Deputy Marian McGennis, who is absent today, would usually lead the Irish contribution in this regard. She has been a very active member of the committee and has had the opportunity of participating directly during a range of visits to which the report refers directly. In her absence, I did not want to see the situation arise whereby all the contributions would be coming from the British side. I am sure there are people around the table who would say, "Kevin McNamara started it off. How could it be?" In this situation, I only wanted to pay that tribute. I identified absolutely with the tenor of Kevin McNamara's report. An important range of areas of support will ensure a greater understanding and awareness of the reality of the situation in Ireland, of past relationships between these two islands and, most important, of the potential for the relationship between both islands in future. I agree wholeheartedly that the work of the committee is critical and crucial. I wish it continued success.

The Co-Chairman (Mr Winnick): Before I call on Mr John McFall, I wish to state that I will call on Mr Conor Lenihan to wind up, so he will be the last speaker. There is nothing like giving you notice in advance.

Mr McFall: I congratulate Kevin McNamara, as chairman of the Committee, for the fine work he has been doing on these issues. A few years ago, in another capacity, I visited Sabhal Mòr to see for myself the good work that was taking place in the college. I had an opportunity to meet young people from Ireland, Australia, Spain, Wales, England and elsewhere. They were keen and interested to learn the Gaelic language. It is not just a marginal language in Scotland - although a small number of people are involved in speaking it - it has got very deep and historical roots. For example, in the 1880s, Michael Davitt walked through my constituency on the way to Skye to show solidarity with the dispossessed there and to ensure reform of the feudal system. We are just getting that now, 100 years later, which demonstrates that the genesis of the solutions to the problems that were highlighted in those days was there even then. We are now witnessing those solutions. Sabhal Mòr is a very vibrant college and reaches more than the community in Skye. It has done a lot for the culture of the area as well as for the economy. More than anything, it has done much for the community's self-confidence. That is why I am delighted to see it on the agenda. I look forward to greater co-operation between individuals in Scotland and our Celtic cousins in Wales and Ireland so that we can have a common agenda. Sabhal Mòr strikes out and shows us the way forward in that regard.

I also want to pay tribute to Jean Corston's work on the Warrington Project which is important if we want to get rid of bigotry and sectarianism which exist in other societies, also. In Scotland, in the past year, since the establishment of the Scottish Parliament, it has come to the fore. We have discussed that issue but the only way we can be sure of exorcising it is by staring each other in the eyes and discussing and debating the issues. The Warrington Project does not have an equivalent in Scotland, but the Scottish Parliament should examine that particular issue because we have a long way to go.

In a previous incumbency, I was very much involved in the Columba Initiative. I am aware that two years ago President Mary Robinson went to Sabhal Mòr to deliver a lecture there and to give life to that Initiative. This Body should be congratulated for its pioneering work on that Initiative. We look forward to having wider and deeper co-operation throughout the islands so that we will end up with societies - not just in the island of Ireland, but elsewhere - that have such tolerance and broad-mindedness. These are the very initiatives that will achieve it.

Dr David Lloyd AM (South Wales West): Diolch Cadeirydd. Fel yr Aelod cyntaf o Gynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru i annerch y corff hwn, ac hynny yn ei famiaith, a allai groesawu yr adroddiad yma a'r gwaith gwerthfawr sydd wedi ei gyflawni.

That was a brief welcome in Welsh, which is my first language, from a Member of the National Assembly for Wales. Simultaneous translation is automatically available in the Welsh National Assembly, as we have half a million native Welsh speakers. More important, ownership of the Welsh language lies with all three million inhabitants of Wales. Hence the language is a main-stream event, neither belonging to one group of people or one part of Wales. Everything is main-streamed. We have simultaneous translation and 30 per cent of our Assembly Members are Welsh-speaking. We have a network of Welsh-medium schools and one quarter of the children in Wales are fluent in the language. We also have a Welsh language television channel.

I welcome the very hard work that has been done on the Sabhal Mòr Ostaig project over many years, as well as the Columba initiative linking Ireland and Scotland, which is extremely worthwhile. As I am sure you are aware, of the six Celtic languages, the top three - Irish, Scots and Manx - are very closely linked. The bottom three are also very close together, i.e. Welsh, Cornish and Breton. Welsh shares about one third of its vocabulary with Cornish and Breton. I am not too sure how many words Welsh shares with Scots Gaelic, but the Scottish representatives will tell me afterwards how much of my introductory remarks they understood.

I welcome the work that is being done here. I invite anyone who is interested to come to Wales to see how things are happening there. Rather than just reinventing the wheel, we have Welsh language centres and a Welsh language television network. We also have all the paraphernalia to encourage the development of Gaelic everywhere.

Ms Patricia Ferguson MSP (Glasgow, Maryhill): The Scottish Parliament's delegation to this meeting welcomes the opportunity of being present and of taking part in the proceedings. We hope to play a very active part in the future deliberations of the Body. We welcome the Committee's report into the Gaelic College in Skye, Sabhal Mòr Ostaig, and into the Columba Initiative which was launched to foster closer cultural and linguistic ties between the Gaelic-speaking communities of Scotland and the island of Ireland.

The Scottish Parliament does not have simultaneous translation, but a couple of months ago that did not stop us from having a debate, part of which was in Gaelic. As a non Gaelic-speaker, one of the more interesting points raised in that debate was by my colleague, Rhoda Grant, from Inverness. She pointed out that her first language is Gaelic, but her fluency is almost nil nowadays because at school she was encouraged to drop Gaelic and speak only English. As a result she now finds great difficulty in speaking and understanding her own language. We are keen to see that becoming a thing of the past. We want to see Gaelic as no longer an historical matter for the people of our country, but as a living language and part of our culture.

Irrespective of our politics across these islands we have one thing in common, which is our shared Celtic heritage. The Gaelic College on Skye and the Columba Initiative are two very good examples of that. The Gaelic College operates a very good broadcasting course where students are able to learn through Gaelic. They speak, think and broadcast in the language from a professional studio. Originally, a number of the students were from Ireland. They have now returned home to work in the broadcasting industry in their home country. In addition, I am advised that the current writer in residence at Sabhal Mòr Ostaig is from Dublin, which goes to show that there are many ties between both countries there.

The Scottish Executive is delighted to be involved in these projects and recently invested £250,000 into the Gaelic College on Skye. I am sure that kind of support will continue and that the links we are able to foster using these initiatives with the other Parliaments gathered around these tables will continue in the future. We very much support the recommendations of the committee that the Governments should continue to support and further develop these ideas.

Ms Margaret Ewing MSP (Moray): Thank you, Co-Chairman. I think it is very important that in the Scottish Parliament we have developed use of the Gaelic language which I do not have, although my husband and mother-in-law have both gone to the college and are encouraging me to go next year if it can cope with three Ewings at one time. Beyond that, we want to see the security of our language and I am not convinced that we have secured the Gaelic language in Scotland.

It is anticipated that when the next census emerges - I am not quite sure how people can anticipate these figures in advance - there will be a decline in the number of Gaelic speakers in Scotland. Therefore, it is incumbent on us, at parliamentary level, to ensure our languages, whether Welsh, Irish Gaelic, Scots Gaelic or the Scots leid, which is my natural language, are all protected, encouraged and developed because if we do not protect our languages, we do not protect our history or anything else which goes along with the nations we hold so dear.

I thank all the people who have been involved in the projects mentioned so far. I am sure there are representatives from Northern Ireland, Wales and from Scotland involved in this Inter-Parliamentary Body and that we can see further developments and share our common concerns, our common knowledge and the developments which we can achieve together. I look forward to further discussions on these matters.

Mr Barry McElduff MLA (West Tyrone): I felt envious when the Scottish and Welsh Assembly Members were speaking about their language rights. In relation to the Assembly in the North of Ireland, there has been some recognition of language, the Irish language in particular, largely as a result of its being negotiated into the Good Friday Agreement. We are all duty bound to take resolute action to promote and facilitate the Irish language in public life. To take up Dai's invitation, we should explore the experience of the Welsh Assembly in regard to the provision and recognition of language rights. I think we have moved a long way from the early days when it was said in one of the Hansards that there would be a meeting in Dublin in a tea shop. Effectively, they wanted to say there would be a meeting in Dublin with the Taoiseach.

Mr Lenihan: At the risk of being facetious I suppose all of this started with a meeting involving a teapot and also a Taoiseach. We cannot mention the name of the Taoiseach any more for reasons of political correctness but we all know about whom I am talking. I will confine my remarks to the Warrington Project because, as a member of the committee, this is the project in which I took the most interest. I did not travel to Columba or the Sabhal Mòr Ostaig project and, indeed, it is great to hear the various members from the Assemblies talking about this particular issue. It is important to encourage the pan-Celtic cultural links that need to be developed further, certainly in the language sphere.

As you know, Co-Chairman, the Warrington Project was very dear to the late Roger Stott, who very much championed it. It is very fitting that today we should sign-off on this report. It was very much to his credit that Roger, in his dying days, was keen that the Committee should pursue this project. Full marks and credit to Jean Corston who, if you like, finessed this by bringing us before David Blunkett for what was one of the most stimulating meetings I have had in relation to this Body. A very brilliant man signed off a very large sum of money to fund the Warrington project over three years. I regard that as tangible concrete progress achieved by a committee.

I will look to see if it ups the tempo for other committees that they can deliver the same amount of money as well as Jean Corston did. We all hope we can do that at home in our domestic parliaments. I congratulate Jean in that it really was a great achievement to ensure regular funding for that project. I know many people on this Body are professionals involved in the education system as college lectures, teachers and so on. This is where peace will be made, bound and harnessed, that is, if we could manage to get our education systems to change our mindsets and attitudes and perhaps forget about our history or look at it in a different way.

And the Question being put:

Resolved, That the Body takes note of the responses of both Governments to the Report of the Committee on Culture, Education and the Environment [Doc. No. 74] on Sabhal Mòr Ostaig and the Columba Initiative, and the Warrington Project.